longq
02-13 07:10 PM
(a) INA 202(a)(3) states that the total number of visas available under both subsections (a) and (b) [...] exceeds the number of qualified immigrants [...] (2) shall not apply [...]. In your case, there are no excess visas available for FB immigrants.
(b) INA 202(e) Special Rules for Countries at Ceiling. requires that additional visas are distributed according to the world-wide distribution across FB and EB categories. Of the 100 unused visas 77 would have to be alloted to FB, and only 22 to EB categories. Assuming a 1/3 distribution in EB categories EB1, EB2, EB3, 7 would go to EB2.
If USCIS cannot follow this rule, those 100 visas would be unused for that fiscal year.
With AC21, the 100 can be assigned to oversubscribed countries, if Visas are available, ie. demand in all categories is less than supply. With EB3-ROW retrogressed, that is not the case.
Just the way I see it....
No. You are wrong..
202 (e)(3) will not applicable, because of (a)(5).
The third point excempts that ..
(3) 3/ except as provided in subsection (a)(5), the proportion of the visa numbers made available under each of paragraphs (1) through (5) of section 203(b) is equal to the ratio of the total number of visas made available under the respective paragraph to the total number of visas made available under section 203(b).
(b) INA 202(e) Special Rules for Countries at Ceiling. requires that additional visas are distributed according to the world-wide distribution across FB and EB categories. Of the 100 unused visas 77 would have to be alloted to FB, and only 22 to EB categories. Assuming a 1/3 distribution in EB categories EB1, EB2, EB3, 7 would go to EB2.
If USCIS cannot follow this rule, those 100 visas would be unused for that fiscal year.
With AC21, the 100 can be assigned to oversubscribed countries, if Visas are available, ie. demand in all categories is less than supply. With EB3-ROW retrogressed, that is not the case.
Just the way I see it....
No. You are wrong..
202 (e)(3) will not applicable, because of (a)(5).
The third point excempts that ..
(3) 3/ except as provided in subsection (a)(5), the proportion of the visa numbers made available under each of paragraphs (1) through (5) of section 203(b) is equal to the ratio of the total number of visas made available under the respective paragraph to the total number of visas made available under section 203(b).
wallpaper inter-milan_team-wallpaper5.
vivid_bharti
09-04 11:20 AM
If you and other who have problems with this thread, don't like this discussion than why do you guys bother to come on this thread, just ignore it....This is not contributing to anything. I dont think oposing parties in this discussion will ever come to an agreement so what is the purpose of carrying on. Please close this and lets concentrate on something else.
alterego
06-27 10:34 PM
My 2 cents.
USCIS does not control the PD dates, State dept does. The state dept will change the PD's to when it runs out of visas to provide USCIS.
Case 1: Assume USCIS and State dept are in close touch over the currently approvable I-485s which can consume visas starting July 1
If USCIS has 40K such approvable apps, then the State Dept (being in close coordination with USCIS abt numbers) would have just moved the dates to Nov 2005 for EB-2 India the date when it retrogressed and similarly to the date when EB-3 retrogression first happened for India.
The fact that they did not do this means they do not have the sufficient numbers of approvable ones. Now the new ones filed in June or July will not become approvable until at least 90 days. So if they are hoping that some of the "new" 485 petitions filed in June/July will be straightforward enuf to approve in 4 months, they have to keep dates at current at least until July end.
Case 2: USCIS and State dept are not coordinating "closely" over the approvable numbers
This means the State dept arbitrarily changed the dates to Current instead of consulting with USCIS that they have 40K approvable petitions. And why woudl they in that case make the numbers unavailable in mid-july in that case?
Lastly even if the numbers can become Unavailable it has to be announced by State Dept. So worst case scenario it can become "U" in July 11-15, which makes the claim by Matthew-OH that it can become unavailable in July first week itself ridiculous.
I suspect that at the end of last month they did not have a lot of approvable 485 cases that were BOTH:
1) Cleared namechecks.
and
2) From countries other than CHINDIA.
Hence they decided to move the dates to make use of the visa numbers. The majority of approvals you will see now will be those that conform to the above criteria. When they(the visas) are done they are done!
I don't expect to see any of the 485s filed now to get approved anytime soon unless for some strange reason dates remain current until Sept............then you might see a few lucky ones squeeze through. So new 485 filers hold your breath until atleast next year!
Come July 1st week, brace for a flood of celebratory postings online as the pre-approved cases get formally sent out letters.
Come October if not earlier it will be normal service resumed, with massively retrogressed dates for CHINDIA, and mild to moderate retrogression for ROW.
USCIS does not control the PD dates, State dept does. The state dept will change the PD's to when it runs out of visas to provide USCIS.
Case 1: Assume USCIS and State dept are in close touch over the currently approvable I-485s which can consume visas starting July 1
If USCIS has 40K such approvable apps, then the State Dept (being in close coordination with USCIS abt numbers) would have just moved the dates to Nov 2005 for EB-2 India the date when it retrogressed and similarly to the date when EB-3 retrogression first happened for India.
The fact that they did not do this means they do not have the sufficient numbers of approvable ones. Now the new ones filed in June or July will not become approvable until at least 90 days. So if they are hoping that some of the "new" 485 petitions filed in June/July will be straightforward enuf to approve in 4 months, they have to keep dates at current at least until July end.
Case 2: USCIS and State dept are not coordinating "closely" over the approvable numbers
This means the State dept arbitrarily changed the dates to Current instead of consulting with USCIS that they have 40K approvable petitions. And why woudl they in that case make the numbers unavailable in mid-july in that case?
Lastly even if the numbers can become Unavailable it has to be announced by State Dept. So worst case scenario it can become "U" in July 11-15, which makes the claim by Matthew-OH that it can become unavailable in July first week itself ridiculous.
I suspect that at the end of last month they did not have a lot of approvable 485 cases that were BOTH:
1) Cleared namechecks.
and
2) From countries other than CHINDIA.
Hence they decided to move the dates to make use of the visa numbers. The majority of approvals you will see now will be those that conform to the above criteria. When they(the visas) are done they are done!
I don't expect to see any of the 485s filed now to get approved anytime soon unless for some strange reason dates remain current until Sept............then you might see a few lucky ones squeeze through. So new 485 filers hold your breath until atleast next year!
Come July 1st week, brace for a flood of celebratory postings online as the pre-approved cases get formally sent out letters.
Come October if not earlier it will be normal service resumed, with massively retrogressed dates for CHINDIA, and mild to moderate retrogression for ROW.
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Rajkrish9
09-18 10:12 AM
Hi,
This is regarding switching job from one role to different role
Currently I am working for an Employer A in consulting position ie., Senior Developer Role. Current Project is ending in Dec'2008
Now I am planning to move to a different role of Management (Project Manager) to Employer B.
what would be the better way of doing for the above said role.
My current H1B is expiring on Nov'2008 (Six year term). I have to ask my employer to do the extn. But the employer doing is very minimal.
I have applied EAD in Aug'2008. - I am not sure when this will arrive.
Now I am into the state of More confusion. I couldn't able to do anything as far as in terms of career path.
Would like to enlighten some thoughts on this situation and Thanks in Advance.
Regards,
Raj.
This is regarding switching job from one role to different role
Currently I am working for an Employer A in consulting position ie., Senior Developer Role. Current Project is ending in Dec'2008
Now I am planning to move to a different role of Management (Project Manager) to Employer B.
what would be the better way of doing for the above said role.
My current H1B is expiring on Nov'2008 (Six year term). I have to ask my employer to do the extn. But the employer doing is very minimal.
I have applied EAD in Aug'2008. - I am not sure when this will arrive.
Now I am into the state of More confusion. I couldn't able to do anything as far as in terms of career path.
Would like to enlighten some thoughts on this situation and Thanks in Advance.
Regards,
Raj.
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chanduv23
08-16 12:03 AM
I just read through this thread and made some interesting observations.
We all have our own opinions and I am bringing all this into context by considering the fact that most people on this thread are people of Indian origin.
So here is my opinion too.
Looks like there is a process followed by the security officials that flags people based on certain factors.
Now, we can talk for hours and discuss and debate - but we really don't know how such a system is working. It might be working great in the POV of some people who claim that it helps with filtering out the terrorists.
If it is a frequest occurance and is affecting everyone - then there is definitely issues with such a system - but do we hear such stories regularly? We don't. We hear stories of Abdul Kalam or Shilpa Shetty or Sharukh Khan because they are celebrities.
It might be happening quite often and we never know.
It looks like a lot of "discretionary" power lies in the hands of these officers and at times they may just not listen or heed to anyone.
In my opinion a "discretionary" power is something that needs to be associated with good judgement. Rules and systems are in place to "help with things in a good way" and need not be the other way.
If someone feels bad about something - it is not their fault as one cannot control one's feelings. This is exactly what President Obama explained at the "beer summit"
In the modern world the definition of racism has changed. There is nothing called racism or discrimination which relate to their original meanings. For eg.. Indian students in Australia not necessarily be attacked by a particulal race - most time they are attacked by a mob of different kinds of people.
In reality "all of us are living in today's world where there are issues - some are vocal about it, some deny it, some supportit and some oppose it.
Lets think like a cynic - cynical people are good thinkers because all those cynics out there have become so due to series of different experiences the eventually changes the way they think.
We all have our own opinions and I am bringing all this into context by considering the fact that most people on this thread are people of Indian origin.
So here is my opinion too.
Looks like there is a process followed by the security officials that flags people based on certain factors.
Now, we can talk for hours and discuss and debate - but we really don't know how such a system is working. It might be working great in the POV of some people who claim that it helps with filtering out the terrorists.
If it is a frequest occurance and is affecting everyone - then there is definitely issues with such a system - but do we hear such stories regularly? We don't. We hear stories of Abdul Kalam or Shilpa Shetty or Sharukh Khan because they are celebrities.
It might be happening quite often and we never know.
It looks like a lot of "discretionary" power lies in the hands of these officers and at times they may just not listen or heed to anyone.
In my opinion a "discretionary" power is something that needs to be associated with good judgement. Rules and systems are in place to "help with things in a good way" and need not be the other way.
If someone feels bad about something - it is not their fault as one cannot control one's feelings. This is exactly what President Obama explained at the "beer summit"
In the modern world the definition of racism has changed. There is nothing called racism or discrimination which relate to their original meanings. For eg.. Indian students in Australia not necessarily be attacked by a particulal race - most time they are attacked by a mob of different kinds of people.
In reality "all of us are living in today's world where there are issues - some are vocal about it, some deny it, some supportit and some oppose it.
Lets think like a cynic - cynical people are good thinkers because all those cynics out there have become so due to series of different experiences the eventually changes the way they think.
old_hat
05-01 07:27 PM
I agree with you. It really amazes me that India is not even saying "something" being a so-called "super-power" in south Asia. Until the last generation of politicians are out of the indian political system, nothing is going to change when it comes to the image or pride of India. At least we should exert out strength and take a leadership role in South Asia and show our power.
India has a history in Sri Lanka. It started long ago with IPKF. A lot of Indian lives were lost because IPKF had to fight the war with their hands tied. IPKF could have captured Pirbhakaran but they did not because Rajeev thought Tamils will not get their rights if they did so. Then Rajeev Gandhi got assassinated. A few years back LTTE had the upper hand and Sri Lankan govt wanted India to step in and help them. India did not sent the troops. now the battle has swung the other way. It is fairly complicated.
India has a history in Sri Lanka. It started long ago with IPKF. A lot of Indian lives were lost because IPKF had to fight the war with their hands tied. IPKF could have captured Pirbhakaran but they did not because Rajeev thought Tamils will not get their rights if they did so. Then Rajeev Gandhi got assassinated. A few years back LTTE had the upper hand and Sri Lankan govt wanted India to step in and help them. India did not sent the troops. now the battle has swung the other way. It is fairly complicated.
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illusions
05-18 11:14 AM
How has panini's profile in THIS THREAD got anything to do with immigration? this is NOT an immigration related thread. If you should police a person's profile in an immigration related thread no one would object, but this is the wrong thread. And isn't the default changeability the US ? Your accusations are pretty strong and doesn't seem to have any backing; what are the rumors that he has been spreading ? anti immigrant ???
If you should police this site, then ask the Admin's to close non immigration related threads that have a political debate involved.
If you should police this site, then ask the Admin's to close non immigration related threads that have a political debate involved.
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pappu
12-09 09:01 AM
The thread was started by an IV core member who took the lead on this and this idea has also been pursued by him with officials. If you have any questions to the core member, contact him. You can also contact your state chapter leader who can easily communicate with any core member.
It is not possible to read all posts and respond so you maybe disappointed.
Thanks.
It is not possible to read all posts and respond so you maybe disappointed.
Thanks.
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brb2
06-21 04:52 PM
Labor substitution in my opinion is less that 1% of cases for some one jumping the line. The main problem is lack of visa numbers and processing delays. We are discussing a topic which will have little affect if any on our own GC process. It is a drop in the ocean to say the least.
I support its elimination because of the fraud that takes place. In the past I have got a pm on another immigration web site asking if I knew anyone who could "sell" them an approved labor!
I support its elimination because of the fraud that takes place. In the past I have got a pm on another immigration web site asking if I knew anyone who could "sell" them an approved labor!
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immi_seeker
09-17 05:47 PM
I think it is between 3000 and 3500, with depended this comes to 7500.
In 2008, 10% of these already got approved.
Some 10% may have abandon application or used other priority days (porting).
Some 5% may have used cross-chargeable
So we are looking at a number close to 5000-6000 for Jan-March 2005.
So assuming the worst case of 10k including applicants and another 5k for the PERM PDs in 2005, it seems if we have 15k spill over , PD will easily surpass 2005. Considering the slow economy and rare Eb filings , that spill over number could be a very possible number
In 2008, 10% of these already got approved.
Some 10% may have abandon application or used other priority days (porting).
Some 5% may have used cross-chargeable
So we are looking at a number close to 5000-6000 for Jan-March 2005.
So assuming the worst case of 10k including applicants and another 5k for the PERM PDs in 2005, it seems if we have 15k spill over , PD will easily surpass 2005. Considering the slow economy and rare Eb filings , that spill over number could be a very possible number
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vinrobo
07-21 01:56 PM
I had my first encounter 10 years ago while in India. Escaped the scene and felt bad that time about it.
But now I have become good at it and just let them politely know about my policy of not "owning a business".
But now I have become good at it and just let them politely know about my policy of not "owning a business".
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sunty
02-13 11:31 AM
$100 from me..for the first consultation...
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house youtube, Wesley
485_spouse
07-17 04:47 PM
Sorry she will have to wait for the your PD to get current.
Thank you, Sir/Madam.
485_spouse
Thank you, Sir/Madam.
485_spouse
tattoo Diego Milito Team Inter Milan
hiralal
06-04 07:00 AM
An easier fix would be to accord a FINAL status for a pre-adjudicated application. USCIS should not/cannot issue an RFE on an application once it has been accorded a FINAL status. The new status FINAL should be visible online and a formal document should be issued to the applicant stating that the application has been accorded a FINAL status.
This is easier to get done rather than an iterim GC. Applicant gets the peace of mind and can go around buying houses, changing jobs etc whereas it is just a procedural change for USCIS.
I agree ...giving a FINAL status would help everyone ..even USCIS ..as once they process the case, they don't have to look at it again.
and they can deport those who have broken the laws sooner ..can we have a campaign on this ? let us start with something small atleast ...
I wonder why the USCIS director did not mention this during congress hearings ..I guess no one cares about immigrants :)
---------------------
ALSO I wonder why AILA and Murthy don't come up with such ideas when they meet Charles Openhiem ???? obvious answer is that it does not help AILA in anyway ?
--------------------
This is easier to get done rather than an iterim GC. Applicant gets the peace of mind and can go around buying houses, changing jobs etc whereas it is just a procedural change for USCIS.
I agree ...giving a FINAL status would help everyone ..even USCIS ..as once they process the case, they don't have to look at it again.
and they can deport those who have broken the laws sooner ..can we have a campaign on this ? let us start with something small atleast ...
I wonder why the USCIS director did not mention this during congress hearings ..I guess no one cares about immigrants :)
---------------------
ALSO I wonder why AILA and Murthy don't come up with such ideas when they meet Charles Openhiem ???? obvious answer is that it does not help AILA in anyway ?
--------------------
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pictures Inter Milan Wallpaper
fairman
08-16 12:26 PM
.....
Mamooty.. who is he?
One Mallu actor ( got national award etc.)
Mamooty.. who is he?
One Mallu actor ( got national award etc.)
dresses Hernan Crespo wallpapers
PlainSpeak
01-14 09:23 AM
My responses are in blue
My advice to you, this forum gives members a chance to voice their problems and many members help with suggestions and experiences. IV works for relieving our problems - and if their intentions are on our side, we need to help them and not fight amongst us or them. Judge by what the administrators of this org say.
My Friend VedicMan
So let me get this straight. IV Senior members can abuse and threaten and basically talk bad about the post but i am NOT even supposed to respond to them with good words (please read all my replies)
And from your other statement, You have already decided that i am not only responsible for my post (And Yes i stand proudly by my post) but i am now also responsible for you guys abusing the post. I am goaing you !!!!! (You know for a second i did get a mental picture of me staning besides you with a stick and poking you in your stomach RESPOND TO THIS POST / RESPOND TO THIS POST / RESPOND TO THIS POST )
So the fact is my friend as i said before when some one has no more reparte to a give they end up making such posts. And as to you traditional upbringing which does not allow you to think that a gal can be confrontational as i said before you have the right to think whatever you want (Whether i am a guy or a gal or if you would like something else) that is your right and yes that thinking can also cloud your judjement (as it is doing now) but what you do NOT have a right is to decide that you are the Judge/Jury/Executioner of every thread opened on this forum
I cannot think of anyone with good intentions spending time to respond to comments that are not worthwhile.......
So senior members can abuse as much as they want and me instead of abusing back (Which you would really like me to do i know) am replying back in a calm measured response and that is once again my fault
You know with your twisted logic of justice and fair play if i am ever in court i would certainly NOT want you to be in the Jury. Infact i would not want you anywhere near the court because you might not even wait for the judgement. You would want to just go decide that i am at fault and get it done with
PS: and yes i am responding back because every response no matter how abusive or unfair like yours deserves an answer
My advice to you, this forum gives members a chance to voice their problems and many members help with suggestions and experiences. IV works for relieving our problems - and if their intentions are on our side, we need to help them and not fight amongst us or them. Judge by what the administrators of this org say.
My Friend VedicMan
So let me get this straight. IV Senior members can abuse and threaten and basically talk bad about the post but i am NOT even supposed to respond to them with good words (please read all my replies)
And from your other statement, You have already decided that i am not only responsible for my post (And Yes i stand proudly by my post) but i am now also responsible for you guys abusing the post. I am goaing you !!!!! (You know for a second i did get a mental picture of me staning besides you with a stick and poking you in your stomach RESPOND TO THIS POST / RESPOND TO THIS POST / RESPOND TO THIS POST )
So the fact is my friend as i said before when some one has no more reparte to a give they end up making such posts. And as to you traditional upbringing which does not allow you to think that a gal can be confrontational as i said before you have the right to think whatever you want (Whether i am a guy or a gal or if you would like something else) that is your right and yes that thinking can also cloud your judjement (as it is doing now) but what you do NOT have a right is to decide that you are the Judge/Jury/Executioner of every thread opened on this forum
I cannot think of anyone with good intentions spending time to respond to comments that are not worthwhile.......
So senior members can abuse as much as they want and me instead of abusing back (Which you would really like me to do i know) am replying back in a calm measured response and that is once again my fault
You know with your twisted logic of justice and fair play if i am ever in court i would certainly NOT want you to be in the Jury. Infact i would not want you anywhere near the court because you might not even wait for the judgement. You would want to just go decide that i am at fault and get it done with
PS: and yes i am responding back because every response no matter how abusive or unfair like yours deserves an answer
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makeup inter-milan-wallpaper
_TrueFacts
09-11 10:37 AM
Lessons YSR taught Sonia (http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/masala-noodles/entry/lessons-ysr-taught-sonia)
Snippets.. go through all the user comments on the post in TOI.
YSR moulded democracy in AP in his own feudal mode. Hailing from the drylands of Rayalseema, where barren agriculture and lack of industry made an industry out of violence and extortion
YSR devised his own framework of governance that he started implementinng the moment he came to office in 2004. Simplistically stated this framework was an adaptation of the old zamindari system: under this YSR parcelled demarcated areas of the state to his loyal followers (who were elected as MLAs and MPs from these areas). Within the jurisidisction of these areas, these loyal followers were the kings - they were free to do anything (within limits) using the state's administrative machinery. In return, YSR wanted their loyalty and resources for the party kitty
Well, YSR delivered the state to her not once but twice and also financed a large part of the Congress campaign costs. In this comfort, Sonia forgot that the loyal Congressman had converted the party into his own personal satrapy
Snippets.. go through all the user comments on the post in TOI.
YSR moulded democracy in AP in his own feudal mode. Hailing from the drylands of Rayalseema, where barren agriculture and lack of industry made an industry out of violence and extortion
YSR devised his own framework of governance that he started implementinng the moment he came to office in 2004. Simplistically stated this framework was an adaptation of the old zamindari system: under this YSR parcelled demarcated areas of the state to his loyal followers (who were elected as MLAs and MPs from these areas). Within the jurisidisction of these areas, these loyal followers were the kings - they were free to do anything (within limits) using the state's administrative machinery. In return, YSR wanted their loyalty and resources for the party kitty
Well, YSR delivered the state to her not once but twice and also financed a large part of the Congress campaign costs. In this comfort, Sonia forgot that the loyal Congressman had converted the party into his own personal satrapy
girlfriend 19-Feb-2011 05:18 50K
MunnaBhai
06-28 04:56 PM
I don't think that they will APPROVE 40,000 appplications in a week. Well they were unable to do so in an year, how come in a week or two.
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aps
09-23 02:57 AM
IV is started for one cause, that is to eliminate the unfair country quota and speed up the green card process. Let us stick with that.Do not divert by introducing these kind of proposals.
Few weeks before there was a fight between eb3 and eb2 applicants on this forum. Now you are starting a new group which favors who has money. This is not good. Let us unite and focus on one goal. I am not supporting this idea. Please drop this.
aps
Few weeks before there was a fight between eb3 and eb2 applicants on this forum. Now you are starting a new group which favors who has money. This is not good. Let us unite and focus on one goal. I am not supporting this idea. Please drop this.
aps
WAIT_FOR_EVER_GC
07-22 12:50 PM
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
PlainSpeak
01-13 03:09 PM
I completely agree with amitjoey and willigetgc.
Blaming IV on one hand for the lack of enthusiasm and support from EB3 community and on the other hand - for a stand-still in the Congress when it comes to EB specific bills/laws is inappropriate. And then asking IV to drum up a fake EB3 relief measure to encourage this community is a disastrous way to go.
I recently spoke with one of the admins (reached via contacts page) who gave a very realistic view of how things stand in the Congress and otherwise...and I truly encourage other members to talk to the right folks to get facts rather than getting misled by pure rhetoric. I trust that IV core advocacy wil identify the right bills/legislations to push for and hopefully regional grass-roots members will support those efforts. This Diversity bill might prove to be good practice but we should not have any false hopes. it just gives us another reason to blame IV later on - and IV is the only true platform we have.
Other than that let me just paste the following I wrote on another thread in response to Plainspeak's approach -
You do not represent my opinions. So please stop advocating yourself as an EB3 representative. With the points you have raised and the negative vibes you have created between EB2 vs EB3, you have shown that you are concerned and frustrated only about your own personal GC situation and are trying to use the EB3 tag to shove it down my throat. Which I completely detest.
And to that commnet of mine which you copied from the other post i would asvise people go to that post and see my reply to that
Blaming IV on one hand for the lack of enthusiasm and support from EB3 community and on the other hand - for a stand-still in the Congress when it comes to EB specific bills/laws is inappropriate. And then asking IV to drum up a fake EB3 relief measure to encourage this community is a disastrous way to go.
I recently spoke with one of the admins (reached via contacts page) who gave a very realistic view of how things stand in the Congress and otherwise...and I truly encourage other members to talk to the right folks to get facts rather than getting misled by pure rhetoric. I trust that IV core advocacy wil identify the right bills/legislations to push for and hopefully regional grass-roots members will support those efforts. This Diversity bill might prove to be good practice but we should not have any false hopes. it just gives us another reason to blame IV later on - and IV is the only true platform we have.
Other than that let me just paste the following I wrote on another thread in response to Plainspeak's approach -
You do not represent my opinions. So please stop advocating yourself as an EB3 representative. With the points you have raised and the negative vibes you have created between EB2 vs EB3, you have shown that you are concerned and frustrated only about your own personal GC situation and are trying to use the EB3 tag to shove it down my throat. Which I completely detest.
And to that commnet of mine which you copied from the other post i would asvise people go to that post and see my reply to that
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